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AbarthSwed
Doppelvergaser-Einbauer
Geschlecht: 
Alter: 33
Anmeldungsdatum: 02.06.2004
Beiträge: 189
Wohnort: Malmö, Schweden (Frankfurt am Main)
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 Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 21:03 • Kamber und Toe in/out |
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Welches Kamber und Toe in/out rekomended Sie?
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Fiat127
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 41
Anmeldungsdatum: 10.01.2005
Beiträge: 3813
Wohnort: Daheim
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 21:55 • (Kein Titel) |
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_________________
Ich bin nur verantwortlich für das was ich schreibe und nicht für das was andere verstehen.
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Mitte
Moderator
1978 Autobianchi A112
Alter: 40
Anmeldungsdatum: 14.09.2007
Beiträge: 1309
Wohnort: Leverkusen
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 21:59 • (Kein Titel) |
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gatti500
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 07.04.2003
Beiträge: 2139
Wohnort: enschede nl
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 22:22 • (Kein Titel) |
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der junge mann möchte gerne wissen welchen sturz und nachlauf wir empfelen...
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gereon
Moderator
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 04.04.2003
Beiträge: 284
Wohnort: Kempen
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 22:26 • (Kein Titel) |
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vielleicht einfach die Daten aus dem Reparaturhandbuch?
Einstelldaten
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Fiat127
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 41
Anmeldungsdatum: 10.01.2005
Beiträge: 3813
Wohnort: Daheim
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 22:28 • (Kein Titel) |
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Da halte ich mich dieses mal raus!
_________________
Ich bin nur verantwortlich für das was ich schreibe und nicht für das was andere verstehen.
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gatti500
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 07.04.2003
Beiträge: 2139
Wohnort: enschede nl
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 22:37 • (Kein Titel) |
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keine experten meinungen ?
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AbarthSwed
Doppelvergaser-Einbauer
Geschlecht:
Alter: 33
Anmeldungsdatum: 02.06.2004
Beiträge: 189
Wohnort: Malmö, Schweden (Frankfurt am Main)
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 22:41 • (Kein Titel) |
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Ok wich one is what "sturz und nachlauf "?
What is "belasted" and what is "leer"?
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gatti500
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 07.04.2003
Beiträge: 2139
Wohnort: enschede nl
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 22:47 • (Kein Titel) |
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sturz is camber , nachlauf is toe out
belasted is under load , leer is empty.
edith says : nachlauf is caster.
Zuletzt bearbeitet von gatti500 am Do 16 Feb 2006, 09:48, insgesamt einmal bearbeitet
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AbarthSwed
Doppelvergaser-Einbauer
Geschlecht:
Alter: 33
Anmeldungsdatum: 02.06.2004
Beiträge: 189
Wohnort: Malmö, Schweden (Frankfurt am Main)
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 22:49 • (Kein Titel) |
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Why do they have under load and empty? Is under load when 1 person is in the car?
_________________
Ergo Sum Optimum Obvius Universitas
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gatti500
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 07.04.2003
Beiträge: 2139
Wohnort: enschede nl
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 22:55 • (Kein Titel) |
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mostly under load is 80 kg on the driver seat and 40 kg on the passenger seat as a compromise to all user conditions.
if you drive only in a driver no passenger configuration , take your own weight on the driver seat to simulate actual driving load.
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AbarthSwed
Doppelvergaser-Einbauer
Geschlecht:
Alter: 33
Anmeldungsdatum: 02.06.2004
Beiträge: 189
Wohnort: Malmö, Schweden (Frankfurt am Main)
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 23:04 • (Kein Titel) |
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Hmm...i think that manual is very difficult to read and understand 
According to it the Sturz/Kamber is Front : 1grade +- 30
Rear: -2grade +- 30
And the nachlauf/toe is Front: 3grade +- 15
Rear: 0 grade
This sounds to me very bad if you drive a lowered car with wider tyres!!!
This would make it understeer alot and wear down the tyres fast.
I think its better to have Sturz/Kamber Front: -1.5 grade
Rear: -0.5 grade
and nachlauf/toe both front and rear: 0 grade.
This way one would have more tendensy to oversteer wich is better and the tyers will not wear out so fast.
Or what do you guys think?
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gatti500
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 07.04.2003
Beiträge: 2139
Wohnort: enschede nl
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Verfasst am:
Mi 15 Feb 2006, 23:57 • (Kein Titel) |
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the figures given are for the original set up , as you mount wider tires in conjuction with lowering and / or stiffening the suspension , the figures may varie
hence wider tires cause more drag , you will have to compensate by lowering the value of toe out to create a drivable situation.
i think it is wiser to aproach a seasoned A112 driver with a wider knowledge in this field as there some in the coppa mille for instance.
or abbi schmidt for i understand he is a master in this topic (A112) , perhaps you could send him a personal note with a question which dates whould apply to your set up.
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gereon
Moderator
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 04.04.2003
Beiträge: 284
Wohnort: Kempen
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Verfasst am:
Do 16 Feb 2006, 09:37 • (Kein Titel) |
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To avoid some misunderstandings:
Vorspur is Toe
Nachlauf is Castor
Sturz is Camber
That would mean, that the original recommendations are:
Toe Front 0 (+/-2mm)
Castor Front 1°40 (+/-10')
Camber Front 1° (+/-30')
Toe rear 2-6 mm
Castor rear 0
Camber rear -20' (+/-20')
all numbers without load
This matter has been discussed here already several times, however, you will find lots of different opinions on it.
Some remarks:
With normal adjustment procedures you can adjust only Toe and Castor on the front, Camber can only be adjusted by using special screws or some modifications on the front suspension system
On the back you can adjust Camber and Toe, Castor is not possible and not necessary on the back
If you lower a car, you have to modify the recommended settings. Take also in mind, that most of the times a lowered suspension will also be more stiffer, so the difference between loaded and unloaded figures become smaller. The next point to remember is, that the Castor changes quite a lot, if you lower the car; most of the people don't care so much about this figure, but it will change the way, how your car will turn into corners. So this figure has to be carefully watched. You see also a quite big tolerance for the Toe adjustments, an adjustment inside the tolerance will give you already a remarkable difference in the driving feeling, esspecially if you have new bushes or harder bushes in your suspension. If you want to adjust the suspension in such a way, that your tires should wear as symmmetric as possible, you should use a temperature meter and measure the temperature on the inside and outside of the tire after driving, with these figures you can try to optimize Camber and Toe; unfortunately a symmetric wear on the tires is not always giving you the best driving performance. Take also in mind, that there is a dynamic effect on the front, if you lower the car, called bump steer. If you lower your car, the steering rack is a different position in relation to the front suspension. That means in case of any movement of the car, for example moving down the left wheel, when driving a fast right hand corner, the changes on the Toe in this moment are different than it was before lowering the car. Ideally the changes on Toe should be nearly Zero, but this is impossible with normal suspension systems, so this dynamic Toe change (bum steer) will also affect the driving performance when driving fast around corners.
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gatti500
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 07.04.2003
Beiträge: 2139
Wohnort: enschede nl
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Verfasst am:
Do 16 Feb 2006, 09:44 • (Kein Titel) |
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gereon
Moderator
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 04.04.2003
Beiträge: 284
Wohnort: Kempen
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Verfasst am:
Do 16 Feb 2006, 09:55 • (Kein Titel) |
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sehr schön, und warum schreib ich mir dann die Finger wund? 
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gatti500
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 07.04.2003
Beiträge: 2139
Wohnort: enschede nl
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Verfasst am:
Do 16 Feb 2006, 10:12 • (Kein Titel) |
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übung macht den meister ?
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gereon
Moderator
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 04.04.2003
Beiträge: 284
Wohnort: Kempen
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Verfasst am:
Do 16 Feb 2006, 10:22 • (Kein Titel) |
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stimmt, das hilft manchmal 
By the way, there is a mistake in the document, in the Camber description TOP RIGHT and TOP LEFT should be opposite (means Top Right picture shows negative Camber)
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tuotila
Mitleser
Anmeldungsdatum: 10.02.2006
Beiträge: 4
Wohnort: Rümikon
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Verfasst am:
Do 16 Feb 2006, 10:58 • (Kein Titel) |
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With my 127 I drove:
Front: Camber 2° negative, 4mm toe in
Rear: Camber around 3° negative, 2-3mm toe in
Front axle thus became a bit nervous and my car wouldn't go perfectly straight under hard acceleration anymore. 3° is considered maximum at rear, because grip decreases from there on with street legal tires (Yokohama A008P).
Riding height and weight distribution also make a great impact on handling and driveability. I went very low at rear (thus keeping reasonable Suspension travel at front) and tried to spare weight at Front (i.e. plastic front hood, spare wheel at the rear, replacing steel bumper mounts by aluminium) and mounting engine as low as possible in the engine bay.
Whole package gave a almost neutral handling even when applying full throttle (1300cc, around 95HP).
Thomas
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gatti500
Foruminventar
Geschlecht:
Alter: 49
Anmeldungsdatum: 07.04.2003
Beiträge: 2139
Wohnort: enschede nl
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Verfasst am:
Do 16 Feb 2006, 11:12 • (Kein Titel) |
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« gereon » hat folgendes geschrieben: stimmt, das hilft manchmal
By the way, there is a mistake in the document, in the Camber description TOP RIGHT and TOP LEFT should be opposite (means Top Right picture shows negative Camber)
die aussies habe schon länger probleme mit links und rechts, fahr da mal ne stunde in einen kleinstadt ohne von einen angefahren zu werden.....
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